21st Panzer Division in Normandy uniform question...

[egonzinc]

I'm planning a 21 Pz Div group and was wondering how prevalent were the field grey wrap unis in the two Panzergeenadier Regiments.
I have seen the famous Von Luck image of him and an adj woth wraps... The bbi figure of yesteryear came in a wrap... But I can't find much in rerms of references.
Found a 21pz dv reenactor site and there are no wrapsentoned.
Thanks in advance for any help or guidance

 

[pzrwest]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

The actual pzgrens didn't wear the wrappers. The pzgren lehr division wore wrappers. As for von Luck rode in armored cars but he wore both wrappers and regular tunics

 

[egonzinc]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

Thx! Will go with "regular" permutations for my heer group which can then be used with 21pz dv or any other Heer unit

 

[montañes]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

Hola Eduardo,

Any photo belong for the 21 PzD, but always nice to see panzergrenadiers wearing field grey wraps.

19 PzD, Poland.

17 PzD

Grossdeustchland.

 

[viaad]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

Eduardo,
I remember a picture of Luck in conference with one of his commanders in the infantry regiment. He had a wrap on I believe. Ill try to look it up and take a picture of it and post i if I can. I would say that it wasnt out of the question and perhaps small batches were worn. I hope this helps for now.

 

[Panzercommander HOH]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

Hey Eduardo,

I did some extensive searches today in the Bundesarchiv for Normandy photos for a Heer squad I have in the works. I happened to catch this post this morning so I snagged photos for you that should be of assistance.

Search Parameters:

http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/

Click on 'advanced search' and use the parameters 'Mai,' 'Juni,' and/or 'Juli' (May, June, July in German) and 1944 for the year. They turned up the following results:


First Set:

Mail Call - 116th Panzer Division (note the 'windhund' pin on the M-43 cap of the soldier handing out the mail. Their equipment and their collar litzen leads me to believe that they are Panzergrenadiers and not assault gun crewmen.

The location is listed as Frankreich (France in German) but no specific information like département is listed. Given the month listed and the fact that they are from the 116th Panzer Division - which was in Normandy in June, 1944 - I would wager that they are in Normandy.



Second Set:

You'll note that there is a small circular badge on the Oberleutnant's (seated in the Zundapp) M-38 side cap. I think that it might be another 'windhund' badge - so these chaps are probably 116th Panzer Division Panzergrenadiers as well. Again their equipment and their collar litzen leads me to believe that they are Panzergrenadiers and not assault gun crewmen.

No info is specifically mentioned in the caption about the unit photographed. Again, the location is listed as Frankreich (France in German) but no specific information like département is listed and again, given the month listed and the fact that they appear to be from the 116th Panzer Division - which was in Normandy in June, 1944 - I would wager that they are in Normandy.

Third Set:

This photo is from a set of three or four of Rommel inspecting the 21st Panzer Division on the 18th of May, 1944. The caption for these photos mentions they are taken in Rouent, Frankreich - I think the German that captioned the photos meant to label them Rouen but misspelled it.

I know there is an assault gun in the background - but notice the two soldiers on the left in assault gun wraps. Note that they each have 98k ammo pouch on the left side of their belt - again - equipment that doesn't seem like it fits with that of an assault gun crew but more of a Panzergrenadier.

Note - these photos can also be found on the Wikipedia page for the 21st Panzer Division in the Normandy section:

21st Panzer Division (Germany) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway - I hope this helps! Can't wait to see what you come up with!

Fred

 

[egonzinc]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

Thx for all the great images!
Now I'm confused! Jajaja!
From these images the use of wraps by SOME panzergrenadiers was more widespread than I previously thought.
Most of my wraps will go to the PanzerLehr, but might sprinkle in a few in the 21PzDv
For sure will do a VonLyck figure in a wrap.
Thx again!

 

[Loke666]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

I think we are into guesswork here - and when I write "we" - I mean all of us.
Harold - I think you are a nice guy but I often wonder why you express yourself in so absolute terms?
To be able to say with conviction that no other panzergrenadiers than those from Pz Lehr wore grey-green wraps - indicates not only that you was there - travelled all over the battlefield and foresaw the qourtermasters issuing of uniforms - but also that every german pz-grenadier afterwards swore to you that he never ever wore a greygreen wrap while at the front.

Its fully documented that pz. Lehr had issued wraps to some (?) of the pz-grenadiers.
According to Osprey's "The german army 1939 - 45" no 5 - the greygreen wrap was issued to a large number of troops including pz-greanadiers.
(yes I know Osprey's books aren't allways the gospel).

My guess (and its nothing more than a guess) - is that the wrap was consiered "smart" and every soldier who was in for a new tunic/jacket would try to get it - instead of the older army tunics. That doesn't mean that it was availbale to everyone - but I find it plausible that some pz-grenadiers (officers, NCO's, old hands with connections) in 21'st pz-div would wear wraps.

The same Osprey book identifies the Mail-call picture above as 11. pz- div - and states:
"The Oberfeldwebel (center) - probably a platoon leader in Pz-grenadier Regiment 60 or 156 - wears the 1940 special field-grey uniform, now no longer the sole preserve og SP gun units but beginning to be issued to the half-track mechanized infantry."
While this is not "proof" - it centainly makes it highly possible that pz-grenadiers from several division in Normandy would wear the wrap.

Anyway - if I was you Egon - I would go a head with some 21st pz-grenadiers in wraps.....

Henrik

 

[Panzercommander HOH]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

I think we are into guesswork here - and when I write "we" - I mean all of us.

I couldn't agree more Henrik! Unfortunately none of the photos I've posted are definitively from the 21st PzD - with the exception of the last photo - and even then I have no way of verifying my theory about the two soldiers on the left with the 98k ammo pouches being Panzergrenadiers.

My guess (and its nothing more than a guess) - is that the wrap was consiered "smart" and every soldier who was in for a new tunic/jacket would try to get it - instead of the older army tunics. That doesn't mean that it was availbale to everyone - but I find it plausible that some pz-grenadiers (officers, NCO's, old hands with connections) in 21'st pz-div would wear wraps.

Also agreed! I think the quote you took from the Osprey book The German Army 1939-45 (5) explains the situation well enough for me at least. The only thing better would be to speak to a surviving veteran who remembers what he and other members of his division wore and/or find a well researched book specifically on the history of the 21st Panzer Division that either doesn't focus entirely on their North African exploits or focuses specifically on their role in Normandy - or both!

The same Osprey book identifies the Mail-call picture above as 11. pz- div - and states:
"The Oberfeldwebel (center) - probably a platoon leader in Pz-grenadier Regiment 60 or 156 - wears the 1940 special field-grey uniform, now no longer the sole preserve og SP gun units but beginning to be issued to the half-track mechanized infantry."
While this is not "proof" - it centainly makes it highly possible that pz-grenadiers from several division in Normandy would wear the wrap.

Good quote Henrik - I need to get that book! My guess was that they were from the 116th PzD based on what I think is the 'windhund' cap badge on the Obergefreiter handing out the mail. Though this wouldn't be the first time I think ANY of us has seen an improperly labeled caption in a book!

Anyway - if I was you Egon - I would go a head with some 21st pz-grenadiers in wraps.....

I agree with you Henrik - I'd go ahead and put together some figures with the assault gun wrap. I think there has been more than enough info presented in this thread to conclude that it isn't outside the realm of possibility that 21st PzD Panzergrenadiers most likely wore the assault gun wrap in Normandy. Plus - look at that photo that Jamie posted of the platoon of Panzergrenadiers from the 17th PzD - they look pretty bad ass!

Good thread!

Fred

 

[viaad]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

Ill try to find the photo I mentioned earlier and get that posted. Luck is in a wrap and Im pretty sure the other was too.

This has been a good thread, it certainly has shown whats available for refernece from books, the internet and other members of the board. I think theres plenty of info to say that it was very likely that wraps were worn by panzer grenadiers of the 21st in Normandy.

 

[montañes]

Re: 21pz Division in Noemandy unuform question...

Panzerwrap fever...lol

Also interesting, a panzergrenadier from PzLehr wearing a M42 tunic, the collar shirt overlaping the tunic collar

The Sturmartillerie uniform was ordered to be issued on a limited basis to units of Panzergrenadier-HM 43, Nr. 269. Officially, this uniform was to worn by soldiers assigned to the Panzergrenadier-Bataillone(gep) which was the unit mounted on SPW. As usual, the bounds between who was allowed and not allowed to wear it were pushed by units. And in Panzergrenadier-Lehr-Regimenter 901 and 902 everyone who could get one wore it. Field Uniforms of German Army Panzer Forces in World War 2/Pruett and Edwards

 

[Panzercommander HOH]

I think your second post's photos win the debate! Great stuff Jamie! Wish those had turned up in my search!

GREAT thread!

Fred

 

[RogueJK]

"Panzer wrap fever" wasn't limited to Panzergrenadiers, though... Check out these shots from the 1. Ski-Jager Division:

 

[viaad]

RogueJK,
Do you happen to know what time frame those pics were taken. Now Im really curious about wraps and wish I could get my hands on some!

 

[Heeresbergführer]

The 1. Skijäger Division photos are from 1944. I've also seen some Gebirgsjägers wearing the Feldgrau wrap.

One should note that the Panzer/Assault Gun Wrap was designed from period civilian ski outfits.

Ski Heil und Horrido!

PK

 

[Loke666]

ooops - sorry Fred - and everyone - I made a typo - which I didn't see before I reade Freds answer - I wrote 11. pz. div - it should indeed be 116. pz. div - as Fred rightly states - you can see the windhund (greyhound) symbol on one of the caps.
Otherwise - the info is valid.

- to make up for my typo - I found some more:
- in Osprey's "Axis cavalry in WWII" there is a picture of an unknown major in a recon unit wearing a field grey wrap - what kind of unit he is in, is unclear as he display some insignia from one of the original cavalry units - the authour concludes that he might be in a recon units formed from a former mounted unit - anyway he is NOT either stug or SP crew - but still wears the wrap.

Henrik

 

[egonzinc]

Greatimages.
I'm very familiar witht he one you mention viaad, a it is in Von Lucks "Panzer Commander" book.
The ones posted from Panzer Lehr were the iunspiration for a large group of PzLehr I have "almost done" and plan to reproduce the image on the half track. In the large group I also included some with HBT M42 tunics from the image showing a kneeling PzLehr soldier, a grat image and of course the more images you find the more "modeller's license" that is allowed!
Great images for reference here, thanks again for all the input!

 

[LizardKing1968]

As it turns out.
Numerous Junior Officers and senior NCOs in ALL the regiments did wear the gray-green wraps. But it seems none of the EM did so. Their predominance in wear was the tan water-marsh camo hooded smocks (1st pattern) with splinter camo helmet covers and underneath the standard gray 4 pocket tunic and trousers. These were issued in large numbers to the grenadiers in both the 125. and 192 regiments. Just finished reading 2 french photo books on the Division in Normandy and for me it's pretty conclusive.


namaste
Miguel

 

[Warriorant]

 

[Squidley]

My god. Replies on an 11 year old thread.

I know this place has waned a lot from the heyday, but it remains amazing.

Thanks to all of you guys for making it so.